With a title that is a better description of what we can expect from academia in the area of finance, Predictably Irrational attempts to refute the claim that we behave in rational ways, by showing that we don't. My response: "Speak for yourself, brother."
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The following is a response to comments to the initial post above . Am pasting my reply here to make it easier to read, especially since the post that started it all is only a couple of sentences long:
Wow. I love the subject but will just state where the major points I disagree with are--and leave it at that.
**Most people today act irrationally but philosophically it's not relevant. Every single person has the choice to see the world through their own eyes, to start with the facts, apply logic to them, and act accordingly. If some or most do not, that is their problem--and they should speak for themselves rather than applying what is true for them or a group of them to everyone. (Thus my comment.)
**People do pick up all kinds of beliefs growing up, and hold them undigested in their subconscious. The ideas are not integrated in with the rest or their knowledge, nor with other ideas they hold that are often contradictory. The results of this are contradictory emotions, and actions which don't make sense--based as they are not on ideas derived from facts but on a hash of mixed concepts and feelings. Again, that many people give up their minds at such an early age is true, but this is not the proper state of man and certainly not the only state possible.
**Rationality does not in any way imply omniscience--the ability to know all of the facts--but it does rest on the idea that humans have the ability to gather facts, integrate them via a process of logic into conclusions, and thus live their life and deal with nature, invest in businesses, and so on, successfully.
The proof that one can do the above is hopefully easy for anyone reading this to introspect, but if not the results of man's ability to deal with facts rationally is all around one--just pick a single thing of value and ask what made it possible, and could it exist if man were the helpless, irrational plaything of nature and emotions that many in academia make him out to be.
**With regards specifically to investing, like I said before yes it's true that many are irrational in both buying and selling stocks. Here again, though, that does not mean all are--nor that man is by nature irrational.
**I don't know whether the book makes the claim from some men to all for sure, which is why my only comment on it specifically was as a sort of warning. If it merely points out that some participants act irrationally, and why, the book could obviously have some value--both in making oneself more rational or more able to spot the irrational actions of others (and profit accordingly).
But focusing on the what others are thinking or feeling is or can arguably be a waste of time in investing anyway. What matters is whether one is right on the value of a business and has bought it at a discount. The thoughts or feelings of others are of secondary importance, if one gives weight to them at all. As Ben Graham pointed out you are right because your facts and reasoning are right--not because the crowd agrees or disagrees with you (for whatever reasons).
**Business schools have for decades taught that there is no point in thinking--something Buffett has always said makes his job easier. Is it any wonder then that the market is made up of so many non-thinking, emotional participants?
Another Buffett Lunch
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It's always amazing to me how much people pay for lunch with Buffett given
that he is very transparent about the causes of past investment failures and
suc...
9 comments:
Forgot to mention, isn't it nice how all of these irrational people get together and, according to some in academia, form a perfectly efficient market?
So are you disputing the notion that *most* people behave irrationally?
Honestly it sounds like a sound thesis to me, and one that I would probably agree with. (haven't read the book though)
It seems to me most people socially inherit a sizeable portion their beliefs at a young age and then use backward rationalization to act as if they came to that conclusion on their own, as opposed to social indoctrination. That's probably why people tend to vote in "blocks" based on backround, ethnicity, etc; and probably why certain popular irrational superstitions persist from generation to generation through the ages.
Human's are social pack animals and for the bulk of our evolution it has been advantageous for us to behave in a pack or herd-like manner, and we absorbed knowledge through our parents so we don't have to re-invent the wheel each generation. Society is much more advanced these days but our base instincts haven't changed so much.
Not saying that it is impossible for a human to be rational, but the first step is recognizing your inherent irrationality and over-riding your "reptile brain" (where-ever you can identify it) with higher level cognition. There's also the problem of the huge (infinite?) amount of data available from which we would draw "rational" conclusions. Being as though it is improbable a single person can know the full set of data especially in complex circumstances, it raises the question of how possible is it to be a completely rational person? My guess is not as much as we like to tell ourselves, but its always good to have an ideal to strive for.
Daniel,
If you actually were irrational, wouldn't it make sense that you'd think you weren't? :)
Speaking of irrational, that reminds me of the price of zinc today. Do you think SRZ should mothball their project? COULD they?
John,
I think most people are a lot more rational than you give them credit for, both in terms of their own economic self-interest and in terms of their beliefs. Partly because of your unique background, you seem to focus more on the... "unbelievable" (to a pure rationalist) aspects of religion. I'd bet there are plenty of agnostics in Church every Sunday, who are there because they see the utility of the institution, even if they haven't been able to wrap their minds around all of the mysteries, contradictions, and paradoxes of the theology.
There is a lot more to organized religions than the contents of their theology. To large extent, the United States owes much of its grass roots democratic and entrepreneurial character (such as it still has), to the organizational structure of the religion practiced by its founders. The contrast with countries founded by adherents of the more hierarchical Catholicism is notable.
Incidentally, one example of individuals' inherent rationality is the recent Pew poll which found that rising energy prices have increased support for domestic drilling -- even among self-categorized liberals.
Dave,
From what I have experienced, very few people are actually originators of unique thought, even with people with high IQ's. Your subconcious is shaped at a very formative stage and it tends to guide you through the rest of your life. Also as I mentioned, we as people tend to follow herds of other "leaders" we identify with, and essentially copy and paste our philosophy's from those. I know whenever I run into an Obamabot or one of Rush's Dittoheads, because the talking points are recited verbatim, lol. That's why Nietzsche warned about too much reading (substitute any media), you want to make sure that you the individual is in charge of the thought synthesis.
Ever notice how when you read an article with a viewpoint you haven't heard before, but you get that punch in your stomach and then immediately list all the reasons why you don't agree without having thought about it? That punch in your stomach is your subconscious providing the knee-jerk reaction, and instructing your brain to rationalize your emotion.
A good place to learn about the power of the subconscious is in the study of hypnosis, where you can get people to believe all kinds of things by directly accessing the subconcious mind (children are very suceptable to this). I recently finished reading the classic "Hypnotism" (highly reccomend this book) by Estabrooks which sheds a lot of light on this. Estabrooks worked not only on civilian hypnosis uses but was also involved in military applications so his perspective is quite interesting. The book is also old enough to be before the whole MK Ultra thing blew up so he talks more frankly than a person in his position would talk nowadays, though he admits he is holding back. But I digress...
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Right now my subconscious mind is telling me that you are wrong about the religion of our founding fathers being that responsible for our countries entreprenurial spirit and so on. But because I haven't given it much thought, my rational mind is overriding the visceral reaction and conceding the point...for now. :) Also I have no problem conceding the point that my backround very well could be coloring my present outlook, because that is a theme in what I am saying as well.
And actually Daniel's comment about the markets brings to light situations in economics where individuals can become very irrational. In the dot-com boom there were all kinds of intelligent sounding defenses of the tech bubble written by very high IQ folk...but all it was, was the base instincts of unchecked, crab-in-a-bucket greed, over-riding the proper rational outlook that would have told them "BUBBLE!". Ditto for the real estate bubble.
I'm sure that people are not completely irrational, especially with their own pocketbook, but on many issues we as humans can be quite irrational for a long time. Certain tyrants have had popular support for long after it became apparent they were tyrants. And even in personal economics, the level of credit card debt most americans carry is far from rational.
Anyway I haven't read the book in question, perhaps it is best to do so. Maybe a book each on opposing sides of the divide:
"Predictably Irrational" and "The Logic of Life" are both going on the reading list. Its definately an issue I can see both sides on. Been reading some of Ken Binmore's work which he shows using game theory how some of what people perceive as irrational behavior or "social ills" are really the inevitable result of people making the best of their situations (incidently, he also demonstrates using game theory the achilles heel of laissez faire capitalism).
There is also the point to be made where an "irrational" belief guided by the subconscious doesn't have to be "wrong" by nature, though you certainly run a higher risk of it.
Definately an interesting discussion to have. Along the lines of my previous statement regarding any individual to come to the "right" conclusion without all the data, its an issue (like most) that one can read about a lot and adjust your perspective accordingly. That's why I like this blog, ha.
My replies to the epistemological issues raised are now in the main post. See those there, and if you would like comment below. Thanks.
As to SRZ, I really don't "get" the question. It's still in ramp up stage and, though cash-flow negative now, has puts in place, cash on hand, and due to rising production levels and cash costs will delever given time.
If I can quote Pai Mei (from Kill Bill--one of my favorite movies): "No wonder you can't do it, you acquiesce to defeat before you even begin!"
I wouldn't judge the longevity or viability of a project based on its operating costs during the ramp-up stage. The market will and has, but my thinking is so much the better, at least if I can continue to add to my position before they all change their mind.
John,
FWIW, I just wrote a post about the shifting attitudes in energy policy among Americans and their implications: "Are High Energy Prices Shifting Attitudes on Energy Policy". I included some of the more interesting results from that Pew survey I mentioned here yesterday.
Dave, That was a good post.
Incidentally, I posted an article from Washington Post on Gurufocus. The message carried was among the same lines. The fact is that somehow we have to reduce our dependence on oil imports, especially from countries that hate our guts. Doesn't matter how we do it - increased drilling including ANWR or look at what the likes of Iran, China, Brazil are doing. Methanol and Sugarcane ethanol are more efficient that the corn ethanol our politicians have been harping on.
http://www.washingtonpost
.com/wp-yn/content/
article/
2008/07/03/
AR2008070303250.html
Thanks, Ravinsu. Interesting article from the WaPo.
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